Process philosophy, rooted in thinkers like Alfred North Whitehead and Charles Sanders Peirce, posits that reality is fundamentally dynamic—composed of processes, events, and relations rather than static objects. In this view, becoming precedes being; change and interaction are primary, while "things" are derivative patterns of stability within flux. Category theory aligns with this perspective by emphasizing arrows (morphisms) over objects, treating objects as mere nodes in a web of transformations. Peirce’s semiotics and process-oriented metaphysics anticipated this, framing reality as a continuum of signs and relations, where meaning and existence arise from dynamic interplay rather than fixed substances. Nature, then, is best understood as a network of interdependent processes.
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Becoming precedes being |
In Parts 19-23 we have discussed circles and conformal maps. Circles are 1D objects, and they have been discussed in two dimensions. But circles may be static or dynamic. A dynamical circle can be expanding or contracting. The dynamical state of the circle can be symbolized by an arrow showing the direction of its rotation with respect to its center. Then, choosing anticlockwise orientation, we draw a perpendicular to this arrow. It will point either towards the center, or outside of the center. State of contraction or expansion. We call them "oriented circles". Points are circles of zero radius. You can not give two orientations to a point. So points are somewhat special. Straight lines can be considered as circles of infinite radius. Lines can carry arrows much like circles. Again there are two areas, one on one side of an infinite straight line, another area on the other side. It may tell us how our line "moves" in one of the directions perpendicular to the line.
Our aim are, in fact, spheres rather than circles - thus one dimension higher. But we will tart with circles, as they are intuitive for our 3D perception. Only after we are done with oriented circles, we will move to oriented spheres.
We first start with unoriented circles. But we want to treat circles, lines, and points in a unified framework. The first step will be to move from drawing circles on the flat plane to drawing them on a sphere - which is a plane plus a point at infinity. We know that stereographic projection maps the plane into the sphere, and maps circles and lines into circles, preserving the angles between them. We will skip the stereographic projection step, and start directly with drawing our circles on the unit sphere S2 in R3.
Unoriented circles
Unoriented circles are simple to deal with. First we define S2:
S2 = {x∈R3: x2 = 1}
Then, for every m∈S2, and for every r∈[0,π] define
Sr(m) = {x∈S2: x·m = cos r}.
Then Sr(m) is a circle on S2 with center at m. For r=0 it reduces to one point x = m. For r = π it reduces to the opposite point x = -m. For r = π/2 we have a great circle. The parameter r can be considered as a distance between x and m measured along the shortest path (the great circle) connecting x and m. The maximal distance between two points on S2 is π.
Let us discard here points and consider only nonpoint spheres. Let me quote (simplified for our needs) Proposition 5.5, p. 120, from G.R. Jensen et al., Surfaces in Classical Geometries, Springer 2016:
Proposition 5.5. If Σ denotes the set of all nonpoint circles in S2, then
Σ = (S2 ⨉ (0,π))/ℤ2,
where ℤ2 acts on S2 ⨉ (0,π) by
-1(m,r) = (-m, π - r).
Proof: Can you see it?
P.S. 28-03-25 13:22 Yesterday's seminar mentioned in a P.S. of the previous post is now available online. Here is a screenshot with me making a comment on simulation of quantum processes with classical computers:
And here is another screenshot, of the speaker, S.A. Vekshenov, talking about classical and quantum processes
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Gennady Shipov |
I have learned about his many papers, in particular "The Problem of Inertia as a Cause of Stagnation in Theoretical Physics". At the end of this paper we read:
-
For the generalized formula , where mass is defined through the inertia field according to equation (56).
-
For the generalized Tsiolkovsky equation (65), which utilizes the conservation law (59) and asserts the possibility of motion in outer space without mass ejection.
-
For the theoretical justification and experimental confirmation of the motion of a 4D gyroscope under the influence of inertia forces.
-
For the creation of a deterministic quantum mechanics, in which the wave function in equations (87) (formulas (81), (82)) is determined by the inertia field .
P.S. 01-04-25 12:31 AI can be useful. Here are some of the equations of the aether theory (with "slots" d=1,...,7) based on Clifford Geometric Algebra (CGA), proposed by AI:
"Change of entropy-information balance in the processes of radioactive decay and nuclear fusion. Application of generators of non-electromagnetic interactions as an effective and only possible method of controlling the intensity and probability of the state of nuclear processes" by A.V. Karavaikin.
"Proposition 5.5. If Σ denotes the set of all nonpoint spheres in S2..."
ReplyDeletespheres or circles?
Circles. Thanks. They are spheres in the book.
Delete"The set of all nonpoint circles in S2
DeleteΣ = (S2 ⨉ (0,π))/ℤ2"
This expression looks like describing great circles passing through points on the sphere. Like all possible radii from 0 to the maximal R of the sphere itself. But don't we need additional (0,2π) rotation to obtain all circles in S2?
Here is a picture I have in my mind:
DeleteTake any nonpoint circle on S2. It is on a unique plane that intersects the sphere. Draw the perpendicular to this plane through the center of the sphere - the origin of the coordinate system in R3. This perpendicular line intersects with the sphere at two opposite points. Call one of these point m, then the other point is -m. The arc distance from m to any point x of the circle to m is the same. Call it r. Then r is between 0 and π. The arc distance from -m to any point x of the circle is the same. It is necessarily π-r, also between 0 and π.
(S2 ⨉ (0,π)) is the set of pairs (m,r). Each such pair determines a unique circle, as described above. Pairs (m,r) and (-m, π-r) determine the same circle.
Draw a 3D picture illustrating the above.
Can you see it?
Yes, i drew exactly this picture for myself yesterday and was quite satisfied, but then fell in doubt: pairs (m,r) give us only centers and radii, shouldn't we make a 2pi turn around each center m keeping at distance r from it to obtain circles? Now i see that it was a mistake and my first image was right. Thank you!
DeleteArk, you have chosen one of the most interesting slides from the Thursday seminar. I will ask Sergey about the Hopf fibration -- how does it emerge in his construction.
ReplyDeleteAfter we are done with S1 circles on S2, we will move to S2 spheres on S3. Then we will take oriented spheres. Someone asked during the seminar if oriented circles can be generalized to oriented spheres. We will go in this direction.
DeleteA small liryc digression, if you permit. In order to illustrate that we all investigate the same wholeness, but represent it very specially.
ReplyDeleteJust found a charming Russian translation of the famous story of THE BLIND MEN AND THE ELEPHANT. A HINDOO FABLE.
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Poems_of_John_Godfrey_Saxe/The_Blind_Men_and_the_Elephant
by S. Ya. Marshak: http://www.world-art.ru/lyric/lyric.php?id=4343
The final lines:
А так как пятый был силен, -
Он всем зажал уста.
И состоит отныне слон
Из одного хвоста!
I apologize to Russian nonspeakers but could not help giving it here.
So true!
DeleteIntroduction to metaphysics BY HENRI BERGSON
Delete"If we compare the definitions of various metaphysics and the conceptions of the absolute, we realize
that the philosophers agree in spite of their various pretences to distinguish two profoundly
different ways of knowing something.
The first one implies that one moves around that thing and the second that one is in it.
The first one depends on the viewpoint one takes and on the symbol by which one enters it.
At first encounter one will say that it stops at the relative;
at the second as to where it is possible that it achieves the absolute."
Only a glimpse of the absolute - it seems to me.
DeleteShipov's theories "can couple directly to spin"
ReplyDeleteYes, surely! Most important consequences of the Shipov vacuum equation:
1. The event space of the Theory of Physical Vacuum is 10-dim and had SPINORIC structure.
2. The resulting quantum theory describes physical fields of any nature.
3. The discrete structure of physical systems is generated by rotational relativity, which considers 6 angular coordinates (three spatial and three space-time angles) as elements of the space of events and reduces any real motion to ROTATION (Descartes' idea!).
Indeed, if spacetime has curvature, there is no reason why it should not have torsion. Electromagnetic wave illustrates this vividly behaving like a screw... And i immediately recall words by Lobachevsky that "каждому электромагнитному вектору соответствует винт в пространстве L3 - абсолюте мира Минковского" (each electromagnetic vector corresponds to a screw in the space L3 - absolute of Minkowsky space).
DeleteReading about Hopf fibration in the Woit's book https://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/QM/qmbook.pdf, p.84-87
ReplyDelete"Hopf fibration is a vector bundle over the sphere S2, a sort of twisted complex-valued function, taking values not in the same C for each x (as would a usual function), but in copies of C that vary with x. These copies of C move around in C2 in a topologically non-trivial way: they cannot all be identified with each other in a continuous manner".
Thought that this topological obstruction resembles the unavoidable cowlick when one wants to comb a hairy ball flat.
My obsessive idea is that such cowlicks might be the reason why two fermions cannot be in equal position and, therefore, why 'rough' fermionic matter exists along with the 'aethereal' bosonic fields. Each new fermion demands a qualitatively new state thus forming a dimension. Otherwise, the matter would never produce anything stable and dimensional at the same time.
Yet there is some mystery here. Quantum theory, when described in the language of Hilbert spaces and algebras does not really care about topology. It is all about measures, measurable functions, etc. And yet, mysteriously, topology seems to have its place in quantum phenomena. There is something deep hidden here. Waiting for discovery and for spelling it up loudly.
DeleteYes, topology is all about continuous... but it is the grey eminence appearing everywhere in our game for knowing and understanding. If I am not mistaken, topological phases give a coupling link to the quantum phenomena.
DeleteAnd i am waiting for Varlamov’s algebraic theory to be topologized, it is tailored for long exact sequences and homologies.
-1(m,r) = (-m, π - r). ->
ReplyDeleteStrange.
Z2 is a group. It has two elements +1 and -1. Group action is multiplicative. Thus (-1)(-1) = 1. We have group action of Z2 on (m,r). To check that we have indeed group action, we have to check that (-1)(-1(m,r)) = (m,r). And indeed -(-m)=m, and π-(π-r)=r.
Delete"... asserts the possibility of motion in outer space without mass ejection"
ReplyDeleteSatellites move without mass ejection without any problem.
He probably had in mind "controllable motion" or "navigable motion", or something similar.
DeleteThe question, "What did the author mean?" is a fundamental question in the humanities classroom.
DeleteEither way, there is no controllable movement without recoil or the absorption of mass.
Delete"Either way, there is no controllable movement without recoil or the absorption of mass."
DeleteIndeed this is a theorem in classical mechanics. But the proof of this theorem is based on certain assumptions or postulates. If these assumptions are not satisfied, then the theorem does not have to apply. For instance classical mechanics usually assumes "empty space". But what if there is always some kind of ether? Then we will have to rewrite classical mechanics, and it may become not so classical.
"Indeed this is a theorem in classical mechanics."
DeleteThis is the principle of how the Universe works.
Do not tell the Universe how it should work. We are rather far from discovering the true principles. We are still in the learning process. Our views change with time. What we call "principles" today will be considered as wishful thinking tomorrow, when we grow. For instance physicists are still debating the nature of "inertia". If it would be all clear, they would not debate such things. They debate about the nature of gravity. Is General Relativity the last world, or there is, perhaps, more than needs to be understood?
DeleteThe fact is that we do not have final answers. Shipov is trying to do something new. I wrote two critical papers about his math, which I did not like. He has replied to my critics. In his devices he is using permanent magnets. Other people point out that magnets are not so "permanent". The energy is needed to magnetize it. But no one, as far as I know, did the calculations. I would not discard an idea if the only reason for for negating it is using an a priori assumption that we know how the Universe works. We know something, but what we know is far from being the precise whole story..
"Do not tell the Universe how it should work."
DeleteI don't tell the Universe how to work. I state that the principle of physics is true that controlled motion can only occur in connection with the rejection or absorption of mass. After all, this is closely related to the principle of the conservation of energy. Will you try to contest this principle too?
"Will you try to contest this principle too?"
DeleteSure we have a serious problem also with this. To get a taste of it you can start with:
https://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/GR/energy_gr.html
"Is Energy Conserved in General Relativity?
In special cases, yes. In general, it depends on what you mean by "energy", and what you mean by "conserved"."
"In general, it depends on what you mean by "energy", and what you mean by "conserved".""
DeleteSince it depends on what we consider energy, it means that we can consider energy as something that is conserved.
"it depends on what you mean by "energy", and what you mean by "conserved".
DeleteOur scientific picture of world is like a net, which we are trying to throw on the reality, with definitions as vertices and laws as links between them. All are versatile, and numerous different triangulations are possible. The most hard problem is to determine which of them converges to reality.
@Bjab
Delete"Conserved is an undefined concept. If you want to use it - make it precise. Otherwise "conserved" may well mean the same as "making a conserve" to be consumed at a later time. Naively, in physics, "conserved" means "constant in time". But this depends on the meaning of "constant" and on the meaning of "time", which is problematic in the context of General Relativity. "Energy" is also undefined within that context. When physicists try to define it - they run into problems. Various solutions are being proposed. Until now no one fully satisfactory. Some of these problems are discussed in the review by Baez I have linked above.
@Bjab In GR we have certain mathematical identities that we call "conservation laws". But when we look at them, they are not really conservation laws, except in special cases. One possibility is that we do not really understand how Nature works. Our preconceptions are wrong. Another possibility is that GR is a very bad theory. Ther are still other possibilities that one can think about.
Delete@Anna
Delete"The most hard problem is to determine which of them converges to reality."
There is also a possibility that, like in quantum theory, our acts of "determining" what is true, actively influence the ultimate "truth".
"Naively, in physics, <> means "constant in time". But this depends on the meaning of <> and on the meaning of <>""
DeleteThe meaning of "constant" is well defined - the value does not change (over time). And when it comes to time, the only attribute that suffices here is its passage.
Naively, in physics, "conserved" means "constant in time". But this depends on the meaning of "constant" and on the meaning of "time"
DeleteThe meaning of "constant" is well defined - the value does not change (over time). And when it comes to time, the only attribute that suffices here is its passage.
<
"The meaning of "constant" is well defined - the value does not change (over time)"
DeleteTime is an absolutely undefined concept, the most mysterious and elusive one. Carlo Rovelli gave an excellent physical review of this concept in his famous book "Order of Time" and the "Forget Time" paper https://arxiv.org/abs/0903.3832.
@Bjab
DeleteThere is no such thing as "time" in GR, and there is no such thing as "energy" within GR. At the same time most physicists see GR sa an improvement of the Newtonian physics. Are you proposing a return to Newtonian physics? If so, what about iots other problems that has been answered with some success by Special and General Relativity?
"Are you proposing a return to Newtonian physics?"
DeleteIn a sense - yes I propose.
(Apart from the fact that Newton had no idea about electromagnetism and aether.)
"what about other problems that has been answered with some success by Special and General Relativity?"
These "other problems" can be solved by a thorough study of the properties and state of the aetheric medium.
@Bjab. Good. Do you have some idea how the ether theory can explain gravity?
DeleteThe disturbance of the aether (mass, energy) causes the tissue in its vicinity to disperse, which causes a loss of tension, and as a result, the speed of light becomes lower there.
DeleteI've seen an elastic aether related to the conformal group and that could allow shortcuts through spacetime Lie Sphere geometry. It's also useful for GR and the full symmetry of Maxwell's equations including superluminal solutions. It also fits nicely in a Clifford algebra. Newton's gravity may have been more rigid but Newton himself and his alchemy may have loved the conformal group.
Delete@Bjab?
DeleteThis ether is in space?
It satisfies some equations? If so, where do they come from?
Do these equations require Euclidean geometry of space?
Why is geometry of space Euclidean? Where it comes from?
1. Aethter is in space 3D.
Delete2. Surely.
3. They should be developed.
4. Surely.
5. It is 3D Euclidean because of cross product https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCWP6MWQ6vE
6. From properties of Mathematics.
@Bjab I have put some tentative equations in a P.S.
Delete"AI can be useful"
DeleteSometimes.
I like that it was getting "complex" from real bivectors. I think EEQT specifically the central classical part should be in there somewhere maybe via the central grade. Also infinity via tensor product to get the boring low energy part but that's not really what you are after.
ReplyDeleteOn the Cass forum, a commenter mentioned you mentioning conformal inversion. Consciousness looking at worldlines out to infinity and collapsing when torsion/curvature/spacetime separation gets too big might work with conformal inversion as you mentioned. Densities as some kind of torsion size, is that what Grok is suggesting? I think densities works better with some kind of personality modeling-like vectors like materialistic rigid vs. intuitively open instead of physics ones but it's got to be physics too in some sense.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteDidn't feel myself strong enough to go through the Ark-AI dialogue on 43 pages, looked at the 4-page one.
ReplyDeleteAmazingly, found a catching idea, just at the beginning.
---
"Inverted Representation: To model consciousness, “visualize the inverted representation” of gravity’s geometry—implying a dual or reciprocal perspective.
...Gravity and consciousness are flip sides of the same coin—geometry alone (not quantum probability) holds the key...
...Inversion isn’t literal (e.g., upside-down) but conceptual—possibly a mathematical duality (e.g., reciprocal, adjoint) or a shift from physical to informational geometry".
---
Don't know what informational geometry is, but all these 'inversions' and 'dualities' made me think about Lobachevsky geometry as a dual, or inversive, to Riemannian one. Lobachevsky space is domestic for spinors and this would make a link to the fundamental role of spinors in our cognition.
"Infinite Dimensions: Model spacetime as a projection from an infinite-dimensional manifold, where 3D emerges for thought sequencing (per Cs), and higher dimensions encode consciousness’s non-local aspects—akin to a holographic or fractal unfolding".
I have my own model, which implies dimensions, unfolding, and probably even consciousness (better to say 'mind') but it is too straightforward and, at the same time, too weird to present it here.
@Anna
Delete") but it is too straightforward and, at the same time, too weird to present it here."
This erxactly the place for you to present it!
@Anna
DeleteI really like Vladimirov's approach and deep understanding of relations between physics, mathematics and metaphysics. Yesterday I liked, in particular, his replies to the comments of the mathematician during the seminar. The mathematician did not impress me at all, to say the least.
@Ark
DeleteИ чем же смог разочаровать вас математик?
@Igor
DeleteIf he reads somewhere that some physicists state that some experiments invalidate (or confirm) some theory or idea - he believes that it is indeed so!
Пожалуй вы правы. Например, под экспериментальный факт расширения Вселенной можно подогнать разные теории.
DeleteExperimental fact is rather what we call "redshift". Relating it to "expanding universe" is one possible theory, not an experimental fact.
DeleteWell, some experimental data do 'invalidate' a theory, do you dispute that?
DeleteVarlamov has a superb post on the interpretation of redshift as a purely gravitational phenomenon https://dzen.ru/a/ZrAW8HNvQTDoAk_X
DeleteA simple calculation shows that the Doppler effect due to the presence of a uniform gravitational field (which is a derivative of the average distribution of matter) is precisely the same as predicted by the Hubble's law.
DeleteВ ОТО нет гравитационного поля, поэтому там используют геометрическое расширение.
Delete@ Saša April 4, 2025 at 9:46 AM
Delete"Well, some experimental data do 'invalidate' a theory, do you dispute that?"
Too general statement and too fuzzy. Give just one example. You will see that it is impossible to give an example. That is because any theory requires an interpretation. And these can be many and usually highly flexible. Also experiment is a fuzzy concept. Must be repeatable? Must it be recorded on media? Or just verbally reported experience? Must it be confirmed by some theory? Direct? Indirect? Do dreams count as experiments? How do we know experiments are not influenced by evil alien intelligences? You can probably invent many other complicating circumstances.
But yes, probably quite many people have the same opinion on the subject as you do. Perhaps even majority. Does it prove anything?
We leave in a tangled world, perhaps, some will say, in a simulation. Or, maybe not. Lot to learn!
Theory: chairs are not real. Experimental data: your little pinky hurts for real each time it meets the chair. Conclusion: chairs do exist, at least for little pinkies. QED (just wanted to write that)
Delete@Igor Bayak April 4, 2025 at 10:32 AM
Delete"В ОТО нет гравитационного поля,"
This is not true as stated. See e.g.
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Общая_теория_относительности
"Принцип наименьшего действия для гравитационного поля и материи"
Впервые принцип наименьшего действия для гравитационного поля и материи сформулировал Д. Гильберт
By the way, agreed with what you wrote, with just one small addition: experimental data also require interpretations, not just theories. FWIW.
DeleteКстати, геометрическое расширение можно интерпретировать как динамическую эволюцию векторного поля, индуцирующего метрику.
Delete@Saša
DeleteFor little pinky pain is real, not the chair. But it can be purely psychological. Phenomena of feeling pain i non-existing parts of the body are known.
@Ark
Delete"Give just one example. You will see that it is impossible to give an example."
You seem too certain with this statement, which is usually not a very good sign. Leaving that chair example in previous comment aside, what about geocentric theory or model that's evidently invalidated by experimental data, would that count as a valid example? If so, would that then also invalidate your claim that it is impossible to give an example?
And just a small reminder to your own words some time ago; impossible just takes a bit more time. FWIW.
"what about geocentric theory or model that's evidently invalidated by experimental data"
DeleteNot at all. Bjab was discussing this issue at some point. Nothing in GR prevents you from setting the Earth as the origin of your coordinate system. Some formulas will be more complicated, some other formulas will look simpler, but Sun will rotate around the Earth, all in agreement with GR.
У Гильберта нет потенциальных полей. Его мировая функция это скаляр из тензорных полей.
DeleteIn GRT the metric tensor g_\mu\nu is usually considered to be the potential for the gravitational field \Gamma^mu_\nu\sigma (which is not a tensor) .
DeleteBjab was discussing sundials, not the GR, which is mostly rubbish. And this is weird, as Bjab would say, you now claim that geocentric theory has not been refuted by the experimental data. Geocentric theory, by the way, means that Earth is in center of the Universe, static and motionless, while everything else moves around it. Nothing to do with GR and coordinate systems, as even gravity did not exist in geocentric theory.
DeleteSo, do you still claim geocentric theory has not been refuted, i.e. that gravity does not exist?
Mentioning GR in that context seems like just an evasive and distraction maneuver, obfuscating the matter in favor of sticking to invalid claim, at least it looks that way to me.
You may like to read this:
Deletehttps://www.quora.com/Can-general-relativity-explain-the-geocentric-model-of-the-solar-system
Это происходит только в приближении 1-параметрического метрическлго тензора.
Delete@Saša
DeleteAdditionally you are using undefined term "geocentric theory". Then you will add or remove from its meaning elements that suit you. You will say "I didn't men this", or "I had in mind that". Such a discussion will not lead anywhere. But is a good example how a discussion can be twisted when it is too abstract. It is better to concentrate on math.
@Ark
DeleteThanks.
And there under that text, among first comments, it says:
"While GR can theoretically accommodate a geocentric model (where Earth is at the center of the solar system), it does so in a way that is inconsistent with our current understanding of physics and observational evidence."
Which brings us back to experimental data, i.e. observational evidence determining if what a theory tells us is false or not, in that specific context.
Can you give me a counter example, where a blatantly erroneous theory according to experimental data can be made correct and true regardless of the observational evidence? What about flat Earth, would you say that even that theory is not refuted by experimental data?
"Additionally you are using undefined term "geocentric theory". Then you will add or remove from its meaning elements that suit you. You will say "I didn't men this", or "I had in mind that"."
DeleteIt's true that I used undefined term, apologies for that. But why do you claim I would do something ahead of doing anything, especially if the term is still undefined, as you said just in sentence before projecting what I will or won't do?
You seem rather antagonistic and confrontational in this small exchange, is there a reason behind such behavior?
@Saša
Delete"You seem rather antagonistic and confrontational in this small exchange, is there a reason behind such behavior?"
Yes. I do not want statements that I consider potentially misleading to be left without comment on my blog. Someone could take it as my implicit support for such statements. Igor Bayak has also tendencies for saying vague and misleading things. I feel obliged to correct them as well.
OK, thanks for explanation, and apologies also for unclear statement.
DeleteNow made in a clearer manner: there are situations where experimental data do refute a theory or a model for that specific situation, like for example classical physics explanation for termal radiation which would lead to so called ultraviolet catastrophe meaning that experimental data showed that classical physics description was not valid in this case which lead to birth of QM, or model of light as purely waves which experimental data showed was not correctly describing so called photo-electric effect for which description of light as particles or photons as energy quanta Einstein was awarded the Nobel prize.
Do these two examples meet your criteria for valid examples and so refute your claim that it is impossible to give an example that would show that some experimental data really do 'invalidate' a theory?
@Saša
Delete"Now made in a clearer manner: there are situations where experimental data do refute a theory or a model for that specific situation, like for example classical physics explanation for termal radiation which would lead to so called ultraviolet catastrophe meaning that experimental data showed that classical physics description was not valid"
That is again incorrect. This particular feature is explained by classical stochastic electrodynamics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stochastic_electrodynamics
Well, on Wikipedia link you shared it says that this model is not in fact classical physics or classical electrodynamics, although you attached the attribute "classical" to it.
Delete"As temperature approaches zero, experimental measurements of the force between two uncharged, conducting plates in a vacuum do not go to zero as classical electrodynamics would predict."
And besides, it says that SED:
"Stochastic electrodynamics (SED) extends classical electrodynamics (CED) of theoretical physics by adding the hypothesis of a classical Lorentz invariant radiation field having statistical properties similar to that of the electromagnetic zero-point field (ZPF) of quantum electrodynamics (QED).",
making it rather evident that it is not what was considered classical physics at the time when Planck introduced QM description of the black body or termal radiation. In fact it seems SED was not even invented or discovered at that time.
Why do you want to prove your claim that it's impossible to give an example by twisting the things to appear that examples I gave were incorrect? By all means, those descriptions or theories at that time really do seem to be 'invalidated' in these situations by experimental data. Why do you insist on showing otherwise by untrue arguments? What's in it for you in this case?
Stochastic electrodynamics is a classical theory.
Delete"We develop a statistical description for a particle coupled to the zero-point radiation field, and apply it to the harmonic oscillator. We recover the quantum mechanical description as a limiting case of the corresponding statistical description in configuration space."
https://inspirehep.net/literature/113421
It does not matter whether it existed or not at the time of Planck. It is a purely classical theory in agreement with the thermal radiation data used by Planck. So these data do not validate quantum theory and they do not invalidate purely classical (no quantum theory, just classical probabilities).
I guess you did not know about it? Or you knew but have forgotten?
Although it seems evident, maybe I need to point out that I am not claiming that maybe at some later time an adapted or modified theory or model might accomodate for experimental data that firstly invalidated or refuted an earlier model or version of that theory.
DeleteLike you wrote to Bjab's comment few days ago:
"We are still in the learning process. Our views change with time. What we call "principles" today will be considered as wishful thinking tomorrow, when we grow."
So, I'm rather confused and puzzled by your attitude here and continued argumentation which frankly at moments looked like distorting things.
"I guess you did not know about it? Or you knew but have forgotten?"
DeleteYou shared about it here on the blog some time ago, so you introduced me to it yourself.
"It does not matter whether it existed or not at the time of Planck."
But Ark, that's the point what I am saying, experimental data refuted an existing theory at that time in that situation, not that it refuted every possible future version or extension of such type of theories.
ZPF is a concept that came later, with QM, it seems to me, it does not appear like a purely classical thing, especially at the time of Planck.
@Saša
Delete"experimental data refuted an existing theory"
The data were in disagreement with a certain formula derived by some physicists who had made certain assumptions. This is normal. If you would state it this way - I fully agree.
Saying that these data refuted a "theory" is however misleading, because some people will think that the talk is about classical mechanics or electrodynamics. "Theory" is a fuzzy concept. What is a "theory"? What is, for instance", "quantum theory"? Different authors can have different points of view, they will disagree on details, or on interpretations, or on the ways it should be applied. It is important to pay attention to such things.
Well, like you said Ark, this is your blog, and I am very grateful to even be in position to communicate with you here, so I better behave and recall my manners as a guest in your place.
DeleteYou have been right, I was wrong.
Apologies for taking your time to show me that and behaving in an unrespectful way to you as my host here. Hopefully will be able to balance the energy you exerted on my behalf today some time in not too distant future. Thank you.
"It is important to pay attention to such things."
DeleteI fully agree, and understand now perfectly the point you have been conveying. Thank you.
Соглласен.
ReplyDelete@Ark,
ReplyDelete"I really like Vladimirov's approach and deep understanding of relations between physics, mathematics and metaphysics"
Vladimirov is a very wise man, he has gone through many paradigms, taught students many different courses: from general relativity to quantum gravity. His relational approach is a mature result of long, deep and highly professional work. Unfortunately, the mathematical apparatus of his theory is still in its infancy. As far as I know, the best development to date is what Andrey Zhilkin is doing.
"This exactly the place for you to present it!"
ReplyDeleteArk, thank you so much for your kind attention and interest to my ideas. I am trying to write some text on several pages to formulate my 'straightforward and weird ideas'. Now i have one more potential reader and an additional stimulus to do it.